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Wednesday, 20 May 2009

Saturday 23 May - Stop Police Violence, Kettle New Scotland Yard!

Saturday 23 May - assemble 3pm Trafalgar Square

March via Downing Street to New Scotland Yard.

The United Campaign Against Police Violence has called a national demonstration to highlight the issues of police violence and demand justice for those who have died in police custody.

The police tactic of "kettling" demonstrators - essentially detaining protestors and bystanders without charge - will be turned on its head on the protest, when we kettle New Scotland Yard.

At the end of the protest there will be a naming of the dead for those who have died in police custody, led by the families of the bereaved who have yet to receive justice. Over 1000 people have died in police custody in the last 40 years - yet no one has been found responsible.

Protestors will demand the disbanding of the Territorial Support Group, the resignation of "Independent" Police Complaints Commission chair Nick Hardwick, justice for those killed in police custody and for the right to protest.
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31 comments:

McGonagall said...

Excellent idea. Too bad they can't be denied water, food, or toilet facilities.

20 May 2009 at 09:04
Anonymous said...

Are they really going on a protest, part of the point of which is to demand the right to protest, sounds like some kind of python style ironic joke.

20 May 2009 at 09:56
Metcountymounty said...

1000 people have died in Police custody in 40 years? what a complete load of bollocks! that's an average of 250 a year when there are less than 60 deaths in custody a year according to the home office AND the IPCC. That average includes an extremely large number of people who are so pissed or fucked off their face on drugs that they would die anyway. To say that 'no-one has been found responsible' for any death in custody or death following Police contact, armed incidents, pursuits or traffic accidents is also complete and utter shite of the highest order, obviously you meant "no Police officers has ever been hung, drawn and quartered and had their head put on a stick" following a death in custody.

I'd love to see where you/they got those "facts" from, no doubt the 'demonstrators fact book of facts' by Mr I. maiditallup.

Good luck on Saturday, at least there are no response teams based at NSY. On a Saturday you'll have the counter terrorism teams, special branch and the control room staff who deal with 999 calls. Very responsible. Might I suggest you do it during the week when someone over the rank of Superintendent might be on duty who actually makes the decisions regarding containments or who may have a hand in legislation drafts or the general day to day running of the Met? They'll just be laughing their tits off at you lot as yet more frontline officers are taken off of teams to deal with it instead of answering calls from the public or actually Policing, instead of babysitting a bunch of knobs.

20 May 2009 at 11:35
Anonymous said...

"1000 people have died in Police custody in 40 years? what a complete load of bollocks! that's an average of 250 a year when there are less than 60 deaths in custody a year according to the home office AND the IPCC."

I see that basic maths skills are no longer required for a career in the Met...

20 May 2009 at 11:39
McGonagall said...

Metcountymounty said...
"1000 people have died in Police custody in 40 years? what a complete load of bollocks! that's an average of 250 a year when there are less than 60 deaths in custody a year according to the home office AND the IPCC."

Dear oh dear oh dear! Where did you learn arithmetic? By your figures ( 40 x 60 ) there were 2,400 deaths in custody over the past forty years. Really Fit's figures work out to ( 1,000 / 40 ) 25 deaths in custody per year. But I'll accept your word that it's actually over twice as many.

Who's a knob then???

20 May 2009 at 11:44
Metcountymounty said...

hands up to that one, schoolboy error and I'm a knob, that'll teach me to write when I've had no sleep for two days. I still stand by the other point about no one being held responsible!

20 May 2009 at 12:01
Anonymous said...

nice one dude, at least you weren't driving!

20 May 2009 at 12:07
Clovis said...

deaths in police custody or at the hands of the police or after contact with the police (stat defs change)

1997/98: 69
1998/99: 67
1999/00: 70
2000/01: 52
2001/02: 70
2002/03: 104
2003/04: 100

from home office stats. as mentioned, the definitions changed from deaths in custody to include deaths following contact with the police. but even prior to the change, for the years 97/98 to 00/01 there were an average of 65 (64.5 rounded up) deaths a year in custody or at the hands of the police.

20 May 2009 at 13:26
Anonymous said...

Police officer arrest man for shoplifting, less than 24 hours later he dies of a self inflicted overdose - death in custody/following police contact.

Someone commits suicide during custody or less than 24 hours after being arrested - death in custody/following police contact.

Driver decides he doesn't want to talk to the police after being stopped because he has no insurance, he crashes, killing himself and 3 other passengers - death following police contact.

Man shoots gun out of window and then repeatedly at officers. refuses to surrender, continues shooting, is then shot and dies. death following police contact.

Police officers unable to stop someone jumping off bridge/building and they die. death following police contact.

Drunk bloke ejected from a nightclub by police after losing a fight that he started, he dies of injuries caused in the fight but that weren't told to police. death following police contact.

All of the above go in the list of deaths 'caused' by Police, the only one that is remotely the responsibility of the Police is the firearms incident, the rest become their fault by association.

The only deaths that should be considered 'caused' by Police should be following assaults by police - including lawful assaults during arrest or firearms jobs - or when a police officers direct actions have been involved such as crashing into someone. Just because someone kills themselves, is stupid enough to crash a car instead of stopping, or has taken so much drugs or alcohol that they die, it shouldn't be counted against the Police.

How many would we be looking at a year then? certainly much less than the reported 100 or so in the last couple of years, a handful at best.

20 May 2009 at 14:00
Clovis said...

there are admittedly deaths by commission, where the police have played an active part in causing the person's death, and deaths by omission, into which deaths such as someone dying from injuries of which the police were allegedly unaware.

the police refused to talk to the ambulance staff on the phone of a bystander when ian tomlinson was on the ground following his fatal encounter with the police on 1 april. i doubt this is a singular event. it's perfectly possible, even likely, that in a number of cases where people have died in police stations the police have been equally unwilling to listen when people have been trying to tell them about injuries the arrested person's suffered.

turning to metcountymounty's claim that of his average of less than 60 who die in custody each year, that 'an extremely large number of people who are so pissed or fucked off their face on drugs that they would die anyway', it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. leaving aside questions about the total, only 8 people in total died of alcohol or drug poisoning in 2006/07 & 2007/08: not that high a proportion of the total.

20 May 2009 at 14:54
Anonymous said...

@ Anonymous 14:00
I'm pretty disgusted that you don't seem to think the police are at all responsible if someone commits suicide during/following police custody? What, they were planning on committing suicide that day anyway, and then they had to mess it up by going and getting arrested? The cops don't have to physically assault someone to cause their death, that's an incredibly simplistic approach.

21 May 2009 at 00:19
Metcountymounty said...

The medics who went to Ian Tomlinson didn't speak to the LAS control room because it was the 999 control, they had already been in contact with the LAS control onsite as per protocols when they were sent after being approached at the cordon ad paramedics were on standby. The control room staff aren't medics, they are call handlers just like ours and could only relay what the person on the other end of the phone had told them in the first place.

Have a look at this link if you're remotely interested, its the IPCC press releases from last year, note all the deaths in custody and deaths following police contact, and also how many times they have actually found the police to be at fault - http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/archived_press_releases.htm?archive=2008

Not many.

There are a couple on there of people who died following complaints which were then retracted (ie domestics) as well as RTA's and a number of deaths following attendance by paramedics which is usually the way. If they are remotely too pissed to be taken to the station then an ambo is - or at the very least should - be called for them to deal, you'll find that people nearly always call ambulances for people passed out from drink and they then call us. We're all too aware of the fact that intoxicated people are more likely to die in custody and we'd all much rather they went to hospital to be treated medically, but if they assault the medics or later the hospital staff then they have to come with us. Also if you take into account the massive increase in people who drink to excess (and not just police reported but by A&E as well) then statistically we're going to get more who die in custody. If we leave them and they die it's our fault, if we take them and they die it's our fault too, no matter how self inflicted the intoxication is. More and more people are arrested year on year because there is no punishment for when they do get nicked and the more you arrest the more likely you are to have people who die in custody, same as the more response calls police (and other services) attend the more likely the increase in traffic accidents where fatal injuries are sustained.

21 May 2009 at 05:48
Anonymous said...

@Metcountymounty

"not many"

...

And even one is acceptable? There shouldn't be any where the pigs are responsable. To defend the police because they are responsable for "not many deaths" is heartless. Wouldnt expect anything less from a copper though.

21 May 2009 at 06:41
Anonymous said...

"how many times they have actually found the police to be at fault

Not many."

That's kinda' the point, the cops find they are not at fault, and don't tell me the IPPC isn't the cops.

21 May 2009 at 10:10
Metcountymounty said...

anon 0641 - at what point have I ever defended the actions of officers who cause deaths unlawfully? never.

I'd rather that no one was ever killed but its a fact of the reality of our job and the people and situations that we deal with that deaths will occur, the point is to try and make sure that as few as possible happen and the sooner people realise that the better for everyone. There is no magical answer, sometimes shit happens, things go wrong and people die, as long as we aren't acting illegally at the time then we try as much as possible to reduce the risk to others and ourselves. Policing is about as risk averse as humanly possible nowadays, a fact of which we are actually seriously criticised for when deaths happen because we have tried to reduce risk, such as keeping paramedics out of a firearms incident until 100% certain that no threat remains, even if they are willing to put themselves in harms way. That's why we don't pursue motorbikes, or send riot teams in to deal with anything bigger than a kitchen knife, or follow burglars over roofs - to reduce the threat. Even if we are willing to put ourselves in harms way to get the job done we are persecuted for it regardless of the good intentions. If someone causes a death r serious injury unlawfully then they will be rightly tried for it as evidenced by the recent cases of officers prosecuted for assaults and causing death in traffic collisions.

Anon 1010 - the IPCC isn't the Police and if there is even the remotest possibility of getting a Police scalp to prove the point they will go for it like a shark after blood. The fact that they find very few occasions where police officers aren't actually at fault means that we aren't regardless of what other people think. People like you clearly think that we are always in the wrong and would be satisfied with nothing more than a copper sent to prison for life for slapping someone even if they were perfectly within their rights and within the law to do so.

21 May 2009 at 12:14
Anonymous said...

The police like the IPCC about as much as you do. Can we all tell them to fuck off?

21 May 2009 at 12:40
gene hunt said...

Anon at 00.19 this comment shows more than any other that you know nothing about the sort of numpties the police come into contact with on a daily basis and have to deal with. Alot of people intend to kill themselves or pretend to try etc then get arrested sometimes for their own safety after they have failed to kill themsleves. I would like to know why if all the commentators on this site know so much about how to police society why dont they go and do it rather than pontificating on an internet blog....

21 May 2009 at 13:15
Anonymous said...

Gene, its cos they're scared that they'd find that we actually do a very difficult job that they could do no better. Just remember, those who can do, those who can't preach.

21 May 2009 at 13:37
Anonymous said...

@ Gene and Anon 13:37
I don't speak for the rest of Fitwatch, but I don't want ANYONE doing it. If the cops followed all the rules I'd still the concept morally objectionable.

22 May 2009 at 00:21
Anonymous said...

anon 00:21

What would you have in its place to prevent a Lord of the Flies 'civilisation'

22 May 2009 at 01:15
Anonymous said...

Gene Hunt "would like to know why if all the commentators on this site know so much about how to police society why dont they go and do it rather than pontificating on an internet blog...."

Sort of suspect that most of us wouldn't get through the vetting procedure, on the basis that we all have our images on the CRIMINT database as 'extremist' protesters.

Other than the obvious drawbacks of having to protect the rich and screw the poor, I'd quite fancy the job. Good wages, excellent pension, loads of overtime, freebies and backhanders, a free rein to crack heads and throw anyone you don't like in the back of the van. Sounds a hoot!

In all seriousness though, most of us do police our own communities. My neighbours have frequently gone out to deal with crack dealers on the street. When I've been attacked, it was my neighbours that came to help, not the police. The only time I've had stolen property returned is when I've taken action to get it back myself. And before you bring up the heart rending stuff, yes, I've sat with people who have just been told their loved ones have died. And victims of violent crime, including rape.

And we do all this, without 'backup' without stab jackets and cs gas, and without the immunity from prosecution the police enjoy. And on top of the day job, which of course is nowhere near as heroic and fascinating as yours.

22 May 2009 at 06:36
Anonymous said...

ANON 0636

I really do feel that you have not seen all of the levels of society. There are plenty of people who are arguably more likely to come onto police contact. Many of whom are homeless, alcoholics, substance abusers, depressed, self-harmers, suicidal or any combination of the above. Add this the crime they have been arrested for and you can see the high risk group that often make up these figures. Often the only time that these people get any sort of medical care is from a doctor in a police station. The fact that after 25 years of drinking excessive levels of White Ace, the detainee finally has a heart attack and dies is tragic, but not the fault of the. But at least there is a level of aftercare for those getting back to the police station. Where do you think the IPCC get their figures from?? The police give them to them!

The person you got your property back from, what aftercare did you give? What steps did you take to ensure that they did not die after you had dealing with them? Had they later die of a heart attack, how can you show that you did everything to prevent that?

The only reason that you/may/could have got away with a death following your own brave encounter is because it occurred anonymously.
I notice that it was your neighbours that assisted, not the police, as though some sort of shot across the bows. You might just have to meet them half way and call them. No one can be everywhere at once, you still had the option of calling police after. That way if your suspect had later died it could have been their fault.

Sadly it sems your life is full of tragedy, you really have dealt with the whole spectrum haven't you. Sadly a special on their first day may deal with all of those issues, and guess what, they hold down a day job too.

22 May 2009 at 07:46
gene hunt said...

anon at 06.36. If everyone is out policing their own communities as vigorously as you say why have i got 22 crimes on my page waiting to be dealt with, maybe i could send some of them your way to deal with as your so good ......You can fill in the MG forms make the enquiries interview suspects take statements etc etc. No I thought not

22 May 2009 at 08:41
Anonymous said...

Gene Hunt

Yeah, alright then, you're on. I'll come help you out. Maybe then you might believe that you are not society's sole saviours!

22 May 2009 at 09:07
Anonymous said...

There are some obviously tragic INDIVIDUAL cases, but to throw the faceless figure of 1000 people does nothing but dilute down your own case.

What would the figure look like if you chose the title "How many people have died following contact with the NHS?" You could then mention names like Dr Crippen, Beverly Allet, and Harold Shipman. I think you'll find their figure would look far worse - Lets March, down with the NHS murdering scum.

Nice work guys, lets just go get some more figures to "fog" real problematic cases.

22 May 2009 at 14:02
Anonymous said...

Dr Crippen? Two quick things - he lived, & died, before the NHS was founded. & had you been following the news recently, you'd have read there were serious doubts over Crippen's guilt. Plus, of course, he was convicted not of harming a patient but killing his wife - which, if he was guilty, is an abominable crime, but certainly nothing to do with someone encountering him in his professional capacity.

23 May 2009 at 02:19
Anonymous said...

" Anonymous said...
Dr Crippen? Two quick things - he lived, & died, before the NHS was founded. & had you been following the news recently, you'd have read there were serious doubts over Crippen's guilt. Plus, of course, he was convicted not of harming a patient but killing his wife - which, if he was guilty, is an abominable crime, but certainly nothing to do with someone encountering him in his professional capacity.

23 May 2009 02:19"



What about 'First do no harm'

23 May 2009 at 12:54
Clovis said...

It's not in the Hippocratic Oath.

This is a tad off topic - back to police matters, please.

23 May 2009 at 14:07
Anonymous said...

Did you see all the coverage of this protest on the news, and the updates on this site, awesome!

24 May 2009 at 02:51
Anonymous said...

Can you provide a link to any of the news coverage?

24 May 2009 at 04:08
Anonymous said...

This one was pulled back by his colleagues once I started taking pictures of him!

Scotland Yard, 23 May 2009

24 May 2009 at 04:12

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